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Author Topic: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?  (Read 39091 times)

Martin_fr

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2018, 09:00:13 pm »
Well, figured that Lazarus is still extremely buggy and unstable. Debugger crashing very often, IDE throwing SEGFAULT errors when switching code tabs. Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has forms, etc.

You did install version 1.8.x ?

Anyway on how to reproduce any of that?

Any extra packages installed (included, or 3rd party)?
(Anchordocking is still in development, if it does not work for you, then avoid it for now. Or report the bugs that you find)

Can you rebuild your IDE with debug info (Menu: Tools > Configure build lazarus: Custom options -gw -gl -Criot -gh -O-1  ) and start the IDE with
lazarus.exe --debug-log=c:\logfile.txt  (edit the properties of the desktop shortcut to add the option)
Then when the error happens, check the logfile, and report what is in it.


I use Lazarus (trunk though) on Win 10, and have no issues. (And I used previous versions too).

About the debugger. It currently relies on GDB (like a lot of other open source projects, but unlike commercial products). GDB sometimes causes its own errors... That is no excuse, just an explanation. We are working on an alternative. But it takes a lot of time.
You can test it by installing LazDebuggerFP, and configure (Tools > Options >Debugger) to use fpdebug. It is present in 1.8, but had lots of fixes in svn since.

Our Bugtracker: https://bugs.freepascal.org/
Keep in mind, we need some way to reproduce an issue (or a stack trace, with human readable source names from the log)

mw108

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2018, 02:44:46 pm »
Wow, nice to see that you guys actually care. :o Don't know how many issues and problems I reported to Borland / CodeGear / Embarcadero over the years and never got any response or see the problems fixed. Even the latest Delphi RX 10.3 has the same issues I experienced and reported back then many times.

You did install version 1.8.x ?
Yes. 1.8.4.

Any extra packages installed (included, or 3rd party)?
No. Just pure Lazarus.

Can you rebuild your IDE with debug info (Menu: Tools > Configure build lazarus: Custom options -gw -gl -Criot -gh -O-1  ) and start the IDE with
lazarus.exe --debug-log=c:\logfile.txt  (edit the properties of the desktop shortcut to add the option)
Then when the error happens, check the logfile, and report what is in it.

Anyway on how to reproduce any of that?
I recompiled and run Lazarus with the options you stated. Interestingly, since that I haven't had any issues again and the IDE seems to run stable now. Tried many projects, switched tabs many times. No problems. I will keep an eye on it though.
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS? I found out that some "sensible" operations seem to not like it. For instance running WinLicense to protect an application in the VMware, the protected app always crashes on start. While protecting the same app with the same options in a real host with the same OS, it works and runs.

About the debugger. It currently relies on GDB (like a lot of other open source projects, but unlike commercial products). GDB sometimes causes its own errors... That is no excuse, just an explanation. We are working on an alternative. But it takes a lot of time.
You can test it by installing LazDebuggerFP, and configure (Tools > Options >Debugger) to use fpdebug. It is present in 1.8, but had lots of fixes in svn since.
Where can I find this debugger? Google only brings me to a Github repository 2 years old: https://github.com/alrieckert/lazarus/tree/master/components/lazdebuggers ... But I doubt that it is what you meant? Especially because you said "SVN" and not "GIT"?

Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has forms
Regarding that, I found out that the projects I opened had their forms positions saved in weird places, like Top -1352 or Left 2844. Seems like the author has some big monitor. :D
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:47:29 pm by mw108 »

440bx

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2018, 03:00:50 pm »
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS?

Just FYI, I've been running Lazarus and the FPC compilers under VMware workstation v10, Win 7 host and Win 7 guest (both 64 bit) for a few weeks now and have had no problems at all.  Everything has run flawlessly so far.
(FPC v3.0.4 and Lazarus 1.8.2) or (FPC v3.2.2 and Lazarus v3.2) on Windows 7 SP1 64bit.

marcov

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2018, 03:34:53 pm »
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS? I found out that some "sensible" operations seem to not like it. For instance running WinLicense to protect an application in the VMware, the protected app always crashes on start. While protecting the same app with the same options in a real host with the same OS, it works and runs.

I can imagine debugger apis are more sensitive than the average app. It can be good to exclude the lazarus dir from the antivirus too.

Martin_fr

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2018, 04:11:34 pm »
Wow, nice to see that you guys actually care. :o
We try. We (the team) are outnumbered by users though... :)

Quote
Can you rebuild your IDE with debug info (Menu: Tools > Configure build lazarus: Custom options -gw -gl -Criot -gh -O-1  ) and start the IDE with
lazarus.exe --debug-log=c:\logfile.txt  (edit the properties of the desktop shortcut to add the option)
I recompiled and run Lazarus with the options you stated. Interestingly, since that I haven't had any issues again and the IDE seems to run stable now. Tried many projects, switched tabs many times. No problems. I will keep an eye on it though.
It is possible you did hit an assertion. "assert(something)".

The IDE code contains asserts to check certain conditions never happen (as they should not). If they do, they may still produce a result, or silently do nothing... But since they are not supposed to happen, they are stopped with asserts.

You can add -Sa to the above list, to see if this is the case.

It is also possible that the issue depends on the optimization level (I have to check, what the installer is build with.)
You can replace the -O-1 from above with either -O- or -O2 or -O3

The one problem we (the team) have, is that once the installer is build, tested and released, we do not actually use that exact binary. Since we keep developing, we work with the svn version. And often also with different compile flags, as required by developing (debug settings).

There is also a setting -gt  which can be used to trigger certain bugs. (it can be added as -gt OR -gtt OR -gttt)
I usually have that applied to my settings.

Lastly, something could have gone wrong with the executable during installation, and was fixed consequently by rebuilding it.


Quote
Maybe it didn't like the fact that I run it in a VMware guest OS? I found out that some "sensible" operations seem to not like it.
I dont know, but I doubt it.
I run the IDE in native windows, but I also run it in Virtualbox in a Linux guest. No problems there.


Quote
About the debugger. It currently relies on GDB (like a lot of other open source projects, but unlike commercial products). GDB sometimes causes its own errors... That is no excuse, just an explanation. We are working on an alternative. But it takes a lot of time.
You can test it by installing LazDebuggerFP, and configure (Tools > Options >Debugger) to use fpdebug. It is present in 1.8, but had lots of fixes in svn since.
Where can I find this debugger? Google only brings me to a Github repository 2 years old: https://github.com/alrieckert/lazarus/tree/master/components/lazdebuggers ... But I doubt that it is what you meant? Especially because you said "SVN" and not "GIT"?
First of all, if you have gdb related issues, then 99% likely you would get "oops the debugger..." errors displayed.

fpdebug comes with the installer: In the IDE, in the menu: Packages > "Install/Uninstall packages". Under "Available for installation" search for "LazDebuggerFp". Install, and when you close the dialog, confirm to rebuild the IDE.
Then under menu Tools > Option, page Debugger: There is a dropdown (it shows gnu debugger", choose "fpdebug". Thats it.

In 1.8.4 it may have issues with 64bit (not sure it supports that at all), breakpoints in generics, and stepping in some cases.
In Svn trunk that should work. Best to use "fpcupdeluxe" if you want to install and test trunk.

Mind fpdebug is still beta. But I use it myself successful for some projects where gdb fails.

Quote
Can't switch between form and code, even though the project clearly has forms
Regarding that, I found out that the projects I opened had their forms positions saved in weird places, like Top -1352 or Left 2844. Seems like the author has some big monitor. :D
In the menu: Windows, there is "Center a lost window".

But I think, opening such a form, should at least give a warning. May be worth a bug report.


---
edit:

To do svn on windows:
- Install tortoise svn.
- Checkout https://svn.freepascal.org/svn/lazarus/trunk
   eg into c:\laz_svn
- Copy the lazarus.exe from your install into the folder you checked out.
- create a folder "conf" in this folder. eg c:\laz_svn\conf
- create a file lazurus.cfg  eg c:\laz_svn\lazarus.cfg
  and put this lines into it
Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]
  1. --primary-config-path=c:\laz_svn\conf
  2. --debug-log=C:\lazlog.txt
The debug log is optional.
The conf line makes sure this lazarus uses its own conf, and will not interfere with your existing install.

When you run this lazarus, a setup dialog will show (if not, you got the lazarus.cfg wrong).
The lazarus directory is the svn checkout dir c:\laz_svn
Point fpc, and fpc sources, to the fpc in your existing install.
Same for gdb.
There will be warnings about installed packages, ignore them.
=> rebuild the IDE

and thats it.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:23:43 pm by Martin_fr »

Researching

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2018, 07:03:52 pm »
first Impression...
It is good when you have a plenty of time, to find!! and learn concepts, try different things... But! When you need to make an application with certain functionality, but have to dig documents and wait for replies of forum instead...!!
Now for me it is 3-d week of digging docs.
Today - Stuck on adding openFileDialog, openDirectoryDialog to my application.
Then I need to direct the dialog itself to the form instead of dialog. - question again..
Then I'll need to open File... - again the same?
And each time - almost 3-4-5 pages of forum to find 10 lines of solution!?

Respected moderators, is it possible, that person, who asks the question will be asked to summarize the whole topic to the header? After solution have been found?

wp

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2018, 07:21:26 pm »
Isn't this the way how to learn every unknown software? There is always a steep learning curve at the beginning where effort is huge for almost zero progress. I remember that when I learned Delphi it took me three days to find out how to close my program. So, this is not Lazarus' fault...

Martin_fr

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2018, 07:38:13 pm »
Today - Stuck on adding openFileDialog, openDirectoryDialog to my application.
Then I need to direct the dialog itself to the form instead of dialog. - question again..
Then I'll need to open File... - again the same?
I don't think you can "redirect" the dialog (if that means "embed"). But check the misc tab, for ShellTreeView/ShellListView.

Quote
And each time - almost 3-4-5 pages of forum to find 10 lines of solution!?

Respected moderators, is it possible, that person, who asks the question will be asked to summarize the whole topic to the header? After solution have been found?
I don't think that the whole topic can be represented in the header. Also we can't force people to write a summary... What would be the "penality" for not doing it?
Some threads do not even represent the question in the header. That is undesirable. If the topic is new, anyone can drop a message into the thread reminding the author to do so.

The forum moderation is currently mostly about keeping spam out, and dealing with (grossly) offensive or off-topic content.

Handoko

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2018, 08:39:08 pm »
The first programming language I learned was Basic (Basica, GW-Basic then Turbo Basic). Awesone, Basic is super easy to learn. But soon I found Basic was too slow to run on my 8080 computer. I heard (some) Basic can import obj files. That's cool, so I learned Assembly language (via Debug.com and Debug.exe) to write obj binaries to be imported into Basic. Assembly language is extremely hard but I managed to write some binaries and they really can be used in Basic.

Finally I found Pascal. It's extremely fast compare to Basic and it's extremely easy compare to Assembly. So I abandon Basic and Assembly. Later TPW, cool ... I can create GUI applications using it. Then I found Delphi, it's even better. Unfortunately, I can't effort the price of Delphi.

Finally I found Lazarus, it has all the advantages mentioned above.

first Impression...
It is good when you have a plenty of time, to find!! and learn concepts, try different things... But! When you need to make an application with certain functionality, but have to dig documents and wait for replies of forum instead...!!

If you ever found any languages or compilers or tools that require very little time to learn. Please let me know. I ever learn a bit and try to use QB64, Python, C++ to write games. Oh, I felt I was lost in the middle of galaxy ... too much area needed to be (re)explored. I have no problem using Lazarus to program anything I want except database and web/network app, which are the things I haven't explored.

BSaidus

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Re: Do newbies get a good "1st time impression" of Lazarus ?
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2018, 08:42:31 pm »
personnely yes.
Since I installed lazarus first time, I love it. in a company where i work i use delphi, but lazarus is my love.
lazarus 1.8.4 Win8.1 / cross FreeBSD
dhukmucmur vernadh!

 

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